I wasn't suggesting that a Tory government would be any better, but since you raise it I don't think they'd be worse than the incumbent incompetents.

"Green was/is stupid to think he could get away with grooming a party
member to leak documents that would be of use to the Tory Party."

I'd say that the information was as of much use to the mis-governed (ie us) as it was to the Tory Party.  But if you will insist on making party-political points...Then let's purge the police force of card carrying party members too, since we're obviously on the way to a politicised force.

"as much as you'd like it to be so".

Frankly, I couldn't care less.  Just correcting your mistake for you.

Green was/is stupid to think he could get away with grooming a party member to leak documents that would be of use to the Tory Party.

Tony Clarke's piece in my view is very relevant and welcome as it shows that there must have been a procedure in place which in Damien Green's case was ignored. It's also nice to see him and Peter Kilfoyle stand up and be counted, many others wouldn't bother

Toque, your comment is very "anti government" don't think for one moment a Tory government would be any better, or didn't cover up in the past. What I can't understand is how someone who was a Tory candidate was allowed to be employed in such a position where his impartiality would be so threatened. How many more card carrying members are there in positions such as this?

As I was saying, Philip, I am now converted to the case for independence. Since I'm English, and can't really call for anyone else's, I'm going to campaign for English independence. Since Cornwall, as you have so ably demonstrated, is nothing to do with England, you can do what you like after that. But it does mean you have to earn your own keep. Sounds like you'll have absolutely no problems. I'm afraid you can't have the tin back, though, because we used it all to put our baked beans in.

There's a bright side, though: you get to have all that Duchy land back, because in the Commonwealth of England we will have sent the monarchy packing (again). They haven't been English since 1066, by the way - so all that stuff they were doing to you? They were doing it to us too. Never trust a Frenchman.

Economically, I have already come up with an arrangement which could benefit our two new nations: you could keep making Duchy Originals and selling them to us. Our first trade agreement. They are rather good, and you could put a Cornish crest on them instead.

Not really Toque as much as you'd like it to be so. Obscure examples such as the one you have trawled up from the net are a real exception compared to the true shires of England.You might not have known but for a while Cornwall had its own shires. But if you are still in any doubt.

1) This definition of county in the Complete Oxford English Dictionary. 2nd Ed 1989 p. 1044.

Whence county was gradually adopted in English (scarcely before the 15th century ) as an alternative name for the shire, and in due course applied to similar divisions made in Wales and in Ireland, as well as the shires of Scotland, and also extended to those separate parts of the realm which never were shires, as The Duchy of Cornwall, Orkney and Shetland.

The Cornish Democrat

"But Green's stupidity"

Hey what?  Are you going to qualify that?  I consider that the civil servant who leaked the information was working for us (it was the Government that was lying about the figures and trying to cover up its own incompetence). 

Green was intelligent enough to use the "politically sensitive" information against the very people for whom it was sensitive - the Government.  Job well done I'd say.

What does this confused and ego-centric offering add to the debate? Precious little. His voting record shows that banning fox hunting seems to have exercised his political imagination, although he did find time to vote for the introduction of ID cards and also the Government's 'anti-terrorism' legislation. So, posing as maverick, but really part of the problem of an increasing authoritarian state. Highly appropriate then that he was a special constable.

It's about time these Scots were put in their place. England is the most powerfull country in this union and we should make sure they know it!

Perhaps, perhaps not. Trouble with this whole mess is that a convention has been breached. The Police, hoping to please their political masters no matter what they might say, rode roughshod over 400 years of Parliamentary tradition. The most depressing aspect of this is the craven attitude of Labour's lapdog Speaker Martin. He should have told the Police to f*** off. 

So perhaps we need two things - that no MP may be arrested without a warrant signed by Her Majesty in Council; and that the 'Session Orders' remain in force between sessions of Parliament until the moment the Sovereign sets foot in the precincts of the Palace of Westminster.    

Damian Green. If the rights of our members of parliament are held in such esteem what price for the rest of us?

The irony has just struck me of my debate with Manxunionist. The Isles of Man is NOT part of the union but is rather a crown protectorate with a very large degree of autonomy. Its historic and cultural identity is co-terminus with, recognised by, a specific constitutional settlement. if Cornwall was in a similar position I too might be tempted by unionism.

Paul,

Just for the sakeof clarity are you saying you would deny the English people the right to choose regional governments instead of an EP? If so then that is not self-determination. I would campaign for a strong Cornish assembly along with a full and public investigation of the Duchy of Cornwall. However I would of course accept that the people of Cornwall had many other options open to them in any reform process including an EP or fusion with another territory to form a larger region.

The Cornish Democrat

JFox,

The whole point of this is the sanctity of Parliament - that they arrested an MP for a very obscure Common Law offence, and using this law they searched and took away items from that MPs Palace of Westminster office.

Perhaps the only way to prevent such an occurrence again is to legislate that no Member of Parliament may be subject to arrest without a warrant signed by Her Majesty in Council. And further, that 'Session Orders' remain in force between sessions of Parliament until the moment the Sovereign actually physically sets foot within the precincts of the Palace of Westminster. Again that would prevent any such incursion again.

One final thing: we must be rid of this hideous Government and the sooner the better. But in the meantime the Government should be taught a lesson; the Parliament has teeth and will bite when the need is there.      

We can all whitter on about wanting a Parliament for England, it will never happen because the EU wants, needs and will have nine English Regions. They are set up already. Scotland is one EU Region as is Wales one EU Region.

"FROM WHERE I SAT", at the "West Midlands Constitutional ", Inaugural Meeting 28th July 2001 at the Aston Business College, Birmingham at a meeting introducing Regions, the Scottish Parliament was held up as an example of what devolution meant and the workings of it. As I had gone prepared to this meeting, I held up a copy of a meeting that took place in the Scottish Parliament on 22nd May of that year, when members from the European Union's Committee of the Regions attended, and that I had the report of that debate (which I held up for all to see) in which I chose the words of Mr Dammeyer when he had been speaking to the Scottish Parliament about devolution, that as far as the Scottish people are concerned, Scotland is a "Country", the Scottish people are "nation", but Mr Dammeyer explained that from the European point of view Scotland is like a Region of the European Union. I made the point that the Welsh people are also a nation, and Wales is a "Country", but again, as far as the European Union is concerned Wales is a Region of the European Union. I concluded that the English are a "nation", and England is a Country, but England as far as the EU is concerned will have to be divided up into regions. (The EU decided that, and the British government obviously agreed)

We have a Parliament now which you all still pay taxes towards their pay just as if it is OUR Parliament that instigates all our laws. We even VOTE for them still, and they have some wonderful expenses. The Credit Crunch hasn't touched them yet. Just how long will it be before the people realise the unfairness of this when another Government in Brussels is making the laws that you, me and our own Politicians too have to obey?

Owly:

You are technically correct -  Damien Green was formally arrested for the obscure common law offence of aiding and abetting misconduct in a public office. However, the officers carrying out the arrest belong to the counter-terrorism squad, and Britain's most senior anti-terrorism police officer, Assistant Commissioner Bob Quick, oversaw the  operation. The decision to cite the Police and Criminal Evidence Act was, I suspect, a post-hoc justification - an (unsuccessful) attempt to avoid a political and media backlash. Anti-terror legislation has  radically altered the relationship of the police to the public and the legislature on one hand, and the executive on the other;  and its enforcers are emerging as an efficient government tool for evading scrutiny, silencing whistle-blowers, and even of repressing dissent (e.g. the arrest of Mayra Evans). Would Damien Green  have been arrested before anti-terror legislation came into effect? Unlikely.

Where I part company with you, Owly, is in identifying the key questions in this case. Who knew what and when  seem to me to be trivialities besides the fundamental assault we are witnessing on our civil liberties, and on our democracy.

We could do worse than heed Jefferson's warning: "....law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual."

And his advocacy of a written constitution for the U.S. derived its force from his perception of the dangers inherent in government:

"The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first."

Reading about the trauma that the family of Damian Green went through, probably like many ordinary people have gone through from time to time, I would like to fast forward a little if I may? What do you think Mr and Mrs Green would have felt like if it had been the Eurgendarmerie that had broken into their House and taken Damian Green away plus all his papers?

How about, unbeknown to him he had been tried in absentia on the Continent, found guilty and taken away to serve his sentence on the Continent. Think it could not happen? Does Mr and Mrs Green think because he is a British MP, it could not happen, that he could not be treated in the way he so recently has? Think again and read the Treaty of Velsen.

Headlines in the Daily Mail 18.12.2004 “Palace Dismay as British FBI fails to swear its Allegiance”. Will SOCA and SO19 eventually come under Europol, or Eurogendfor? If these two former organisations are to remain under UK authority there really is no reason why they should not swear allegiance to the Crown and this Country. The other reason why they have not as yet sworn allegiance to the Crown is too horrible to contemplate. Perhaps through that paragraph one can see the real danger to this Country by ‘no discrimination on the grounds of Nationality”. (No Discrimination is in the Treaty of Lisbon and the Human Rights Act.)

Look at Article 5 of the Treaty of Velsen; and whether we are in the Eurogendarmerie or not, it makes no difference at all for, “Eurogendfor (EGF) may be placed at the disposal of the European Union (EU) and also of the United Nations (UN), the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation (NATO) and other international organisations or an ad hoc coalition”. So basically Eurogendfor may be put into use anywhere that may be deemed a crisis situation by the EU, perhaps a country that objects to EU Treaties or Legislation, especially if the Lisbon Treaty is ratified, or perhaps NOT ratified?

Article 16 (2) Eurogendfor Personal may possess, carry and transport arms, ammunitions, other weapon systems and explosives on the conditions that they are authorised to do so by their orders and that they do so in accordance with the laws of the Host State (HOST means the Party on whose territory the permanent HQ is located) and the Receiving State (The Party on whose territory EGF Forces are stationed or in transit).

11) Eurogendfor has many Privileges and Immunities, (Art 19). Individual Privileges (Art 20) and they also have Inviolability of the premises, buildings and archives (Article 21). In other words, Eurogendfor can basically do what it wants. Don’t you wish all of us had the right to do what we want? If they come crashing into your house in the dead of night, we might all wish our premises too were inviolable. (For now, they cannot do this in the UK) I believe even the innocent have much to fear, perhaps more so than the Criminal because criminals know the risks they are taking when they set out to break the law. My thoughts turn to my memories of how I watched newsreels of the Gestapo in action during world war two. Some tried to have us believe they were just propaganda films. Now? Who would have thought this kind of thing could happen in peacetime? Do you still think the police are your friends? Does Damian Green or Mr Cameron STILL think it couldn't happen? Think again. Anne Palmer

JFox,

I do not think this is so. They used the Common Law offence of whatever of 'public office'. I doubt the two Acts you mean were involved, dreadful as they are.

To me there are two points in all of this. The first is the action of the Speaker and the Sergeant at Arms. One doubts the Police would have dared to do this had Parliament been in session, simply because of the 'Session Orders'. So Speaker Martin needs hauling over the coals. 

The second point is the arrogance not only of the Police but also of the CPS. It seems that Asst. Commissioner Oakley (think that is his name) who was in charge of the case consulted the CPS. If they were involved they need to explain what they said and didn't say. All of them certainly need to be brought before the Committee of Privileges.

I suppose the third point is what Ministers knew. Judging by the language used by the Home Secretary she certainly knew of the Raid on the MPs office and so must, by logical extension, have know he was to be arrested. She might not have know the exact hour but I think she knew. If she knew then the Prime Minister knew.  

@Cornish Democrat:

 "You see you've already forgotten that I consider ethnic groups, national minorities, to have rights, and one of these rights is not to be assimilated into the national majority...."

Really? Despite the fact that the language died about 200 years ago, but was recently revived (and no one really speaks it. I bet you could not carry a conversation or write anything in Cornish)? Despite that looking at the phonebook the surnames are the same as the rest of England? At what point are things overcome by events?

The argument you make is that there is no rule that the UK must stay as-is. But the same can be flipped your way and say that there is no rule that says that Cornwall should be revived.

And how the hell do you know that Cornwall is indeed "Cornish" as you say? Does that mean that people from other parts of England (including Scotland, Wales, NI, etc) have never moved to Cornwall? Have Cornish people never moved out? No intermarriage between people of Cornwall and neighbouring counties? Cornwall has lived in a vacuum all this time? If the answers are 'yes', then Cornwall has a lot of problems and not the ones that you bang on about.

IOM, for all of its "charm", is not fully Manx. Loads of people from other parts of Britain have migrated there (for the better).

Personally, I could care less if Cornwall wants to saw itself off the mainland and float itself to the middle of the Atlantic ocean. But I find it very dangerous to be basing the future on 'historic' nations and the past, trying to recapture some glory that to be quite frank, you or anyone are unable to verify (unless you've built a time machine in your garage).  You really need to get over that.

And so what if people were slaughtered? Look at any history of any nation and the story is the same. How many were slaugthered in England at the hand of the English? Cornwall is not unique.

You say Cornish identity is suppressed. What you really are saying is that you want everyone in the UK to pay for the so-called Cornish to promote their culture and despise the UK, the same people giving you the funds. If you want to promote Cornish culture, pay for it yourself. Form a group, collect some money, open some privately funded schools, and teach Cornish heritage to your hearts content. No one is stopping you.

If you were to put forth a coherent plan that says you want to improve Cornwall because of a, b, and c, without all this pseudo-ethnic crap that you always pepper your comments with, then perhaps you'd get support.

There is NO SUCH thing as Cornish, English, Irish, Manx, Scottish, or Welsh. We are all an admixture of one another. That is why I believe in the Union and I don't believe in artificial borders conjured up by kooks that have nothing better to do with their time than divide and spread hate.

This is my last comment on this board! Nothing positive is ever put forth; the same ole woe-is-me complaints.

Good bye!

The anti-terrorism law was worded so that it could be used like a spatter gun. The way it was used to freeze the Icelandic assets proved that. The question is what can we do now.

I think there are two approaches, immediate and long term. The immediate approach is to exploit the fact that Green is a Tory to persuade the Tories to make reversing the terrorism law part of their manifesto. We all know that traffic lights, once installed, are very rarely removed. The long term approach is to work for a written constitution